Document suggests MS knew about disc scratching

360 News | Lawsuit reveals Microsoft potentially knew about Xbox 360 disc damaging before console launch.

Seattle Tech Report has revealed that an unsealed document in a lawsuit last week suggests Microsoft employees knew Xbox 360 disc drives could scratch game discs, before launching on the market in November 2005.

The fault stems from the drive which is said to be defectively designed by plaintiffs filing ongoing legal cases in the U.S. District Court in Seattle, because tilting or swiveling the video game console can scratch game discs playing inside.

While most of the court declarations are sealed, a newly unsealed motion has uncovered information about Microsoft's recognition of the the disc reorientating while playing in the console.

Hiroo Umeno, a Microsoft program manager, said in a declaration, "This is ... information that we as a team, optical disc drive team, knew about. When we first discovered the problem in September or October (2005), when we got a first report of disc movement, we knew this is what's causing the problem."

The declaration continues that after the Xbox 360 launch, Microsoft sent a team of engineers to stores across the country "to investigate complaints that the Xbox 360 was routinely scratching discs during demonstrations."

The motion also mentions Microsoft determined that the deep gouges or disc scratching was caused with discs becoming "unchucked" and colliding with the drive's optical pickup unit, and that Microsoft considered possible ways to fix the problem but in the end rejected all of them.

Microsoft did eventually institute an Xbox 360 disc replacement program that sends out new discs to customers if their discs are damaged for any reason. The program only applies to Microsoft titles and costs $20 per disc. According to Microsoft employee in the motion more then 55,000 customers have complained about broken discs.

Despite this potentially alarming information A Microsoft spokesman responded to the filing today by saying the disc scratching issue was not unique to the Xbox 360.

"Xbox 360 is designed so that it will not damage a game disc as long as the console is not moved while the disc is spinning," he said. "Too much movement of any game console, not just Xbox 360, can cause scratches on a disc. That's why we put a warning on the face of the disc tray, which the user has to physically remove before the initial use of the system. We also have warnings posted online and in hard copy instruction manuals."

The spokesman also said the 55,000 contacts the company has had represent a tiny percentage of the Xbox 360's in the market.

"While we have had some users contact us with concerns about scratched discs, it is less than one-half of 1% of the total Xbox 360 user base," he said.

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72 Comments

G3ck0

3 years ago

^2 things. Some games are BETTER with a HDD< and he was using 9 discs as a example, not saying he damaged 9.

Rabscallion

3 years ago

Quote=

I've lost nine discs to this issue.

Say what sambo?

And the games and BETTER with HDD saving. its not like there are bonus special features with the HDD. no extra levels, no extra features, just quiter and reduced load times.

Shorty

3 years ago

I'm somewhat reminded of that scene in Fight Club where the narrator is explaining his job to a fellow passenger during a flight. If the total cost of "prevention" is less than the combined cost of each probable "cure", it's not in MS's interests to prevent it. Particularly when they're at that stage already sinking billions of dollars into a new platform.

Having said that, it doesn't do their public image any favours when people find out that they knew and did nothing and I also think it's in their interests in terms of customer service to rectify said problem as soon as possible.

Cro

3 years ago

Commentator wrote

Anyway, To the guy who is like 'ive lost 9 discs to the issue'

There is a simple instruction.

DONT MOVE THE CONSOLE WHILE ITS ON.

Sure its so inconvinient to not be able to give your controller a little kick until the turn it off, its not to hard to follow a simple isntruction and leave it up. After the 3rd or 4th, or (heavens) even the 5th disc didnt you go 'wow, maybe I should stop knocking over my console". Ive never had this problem, because ive never needed to move my console while its on. Honest to god its pretty sturdy. If you have a 3 year old giving it a knock, put it in a high place, if you dont want problems put it on its side. Seriously its not too hard.

My friend bought his console on launch with a hitachi drive, has followed all instructions and never had any problem. Ive had 2 consoles, No disc scractching problem on either. I think most people 'claim' that it was on no reason but in most cases accidentally moved their console anyway.

I don't know the guys story so I'm not gonna jump in and say you're wrong, but at no point did he say he moves his console whilst using it... so how do you know for a fact he did? Considering the problems with the 360, is it so ridiculous to say PimpHat may have had a bad disc drive that had a vampire like lust for his discs?

eviladrian

3 years ago

Pfft, don't move the console...

Every laptop on the market has a compact high-speed DVD drive that can function on a person's lap on a moving train without scratching discs.

My car can juggle 6 CDs and play them while driving over potholes and speed bumps without scratching discs.

You can buy a portable CD player that costs less than the CDs you play in it, start it up and take it for a run with you, and it won't scratch discs.

AlphaDark

3 years ago

I've had 2 consols RROD on me so I'm negative from the start.. however I haven't had my consol scratch any discs.. yet.
I have been at a mates though who had one wireless controller and one USB wired controller, while a game was on he held the top of the X360 and plugged in the USB lead for the controller causing 'very' minor vibration to the consol.. within about 4 seconds their was an earthquake going on inside the X360 that killed the game...
enough said.

Rabscallion

3 years ago

Cro wrote

Commentator wrote

I think its pretty ridicolous to say that his disc drive, without ANY help, and with proper care of the xbox console and putting in the disc correctly, ate NINE of his discs beyond repair, yes.

NaTe

3 years ago

I have had a disc badly damaged, beyond repair, and have never moved my console whilst on.

It's doable.

If it happens to one, and I don't play my 360 a hell of a lot, then I can believe that over the course of a few years, and large playtime, that 9 could be damaged.

mjk45

3 years ago

i have had my 360 from day one well ventilated no rrod but grinds like a bitch it sits on a computer table where the lcd would sit not moved at all it shaved 2cm off 50% of the outside of gow1 but through shear luck still played but grind was so loud it was to annoying to play even with volume right up traded game to eb told them of problem they said it loads dont worry well trade it. i also have problems with opening closing of drive. they said disc scratching problem only affects about 1% of total owners, but for every one who takes them to court there would be tens if not hundreds who dont bother

Benza

3 years ago

Look no matter what your personal expeirence with the x-box is the fact is the disc drive in some x-boxes are **** and scracth discs for no reason.

I mean I've never had my X-box red ring but I'm not going to assume anyone that did is a liar that was keeping there x-box under a woolen blanket.

Infested Jibbs

3 years ago

Fly wrote

Jibbs wrote

Meh, who cares.

This astounds me, a company in building a machine to mass produce to the public come across an error in their hardware (minor % chance to damage brand media) and, deciding not to fix it and release anyway, your opinion "meh, who cares."

Who cares that company A decided "screw fixing the problem"?
Who cares that company A still decided to retail at a price that defined a complete working solution when it was in fact not?
Who cares that consumers were then duped and have to go through lawsuits because company A were slack and wanted to release?

Are we honestly to the point where it's ok to spend hundreds of dollars on an optical based entertainment player where it could critically fail, overheat and combust and destroy media all out of the box simply because the level of gravity was disturbed ever so slightly? Within 1 or 2 generations we've gone from such players that could, while the media is running have the lid open and the entire thing inverted without interrupting play to a player who destroys media because it gets a little bump, or isn't properly ventilated.

That people are still purchasing such items on launch astounds belief.

oh, puh-lease.

Put the pitchforks down, you guys are making this out to be on the same level as the Ford Pinto (scroll to safety issues for the horrible truth).

Give me a break about this 50c bs, it would have cost ALOT more then that.Even if this physical cost of opening up every console and retrofitting them with this fix only cost 50c(total bs btw), the time it would take to do this, even if only a matter of days, would cost ms thousands, if not millions in lost sales.Time is money, etc.

Really, the only time my console has scratched a disc is when i was playing bioshock and i needed to reach behind the console for something, and i, stupid idiot i was, picked the console up when it was reading the disc.A horrible sound ensued and a disc read error happened.My fault.

Hey, really, caveat emptor, if you don't like the console, dont buy it.I'm just over the whole ms is a 'big bad corp' conspiracy theories like this, spare me.

pjlead

3 years ago

Fly wrote

That's actually fairly common for big corporations. It's economics. "We could spend $500M fixing the problem, or release it as it is and pay $100M in lawsuits." It has been done with seatbelts, so no surprise they'd do it if there's a chance of scratching a game disc - especially when it can be blamed on the user.

Fly

3 years ago

Jibbs wrote

oh, puh-lease.

Put the pitchforks down, you guys are making this out to be on the same level as the Ford Pinto (scroll to safety issues for the horrible truth).

Are you seriously attempting to liken a disc read error to endangering peoples lives? Just because shortcuts have a history does not make it correct procedure.

Quote

Give me a break about this 50c bs, it would have cost ALOT more then that.Even if this physical cost of opening up every console and retrofitting them with this fix only cost 50c(total bs btw), the time it would take to do this, even if only a matter of days, would cost ms thousands, if not millions in lost sales.Time is money, etc.

If you notice I did not use MS as I am not foolish enough to assume they are the only culprit who undertakes such shortcuts, in this instance if more time in R&D was focused on making a stable product the error would have been rectified in the design periods, it was not. This is not a fault of MS' this is a fault of many manufacturers who are simply lazy and giving consumers half finished products.

Quote

Really, the only time my console has scratched a disc is when i was playing bioshock and i needed to reach behind the console for something, and i, stupid idiot i was, picked the console up when it was reading the disc.A horrible sound ensued and a disc read error happened.My fault.

Single emphasis, if there is a fault and you do not experience you therefore have nothing to go on but heresay of the fault. Just because in this instance you take blame does not equate to the blame being on the consumer in all instances.

Quote

Hey, really, caveat emptor, if you don't like the console, dont buy it.I'm just over the whole ms is a 'big bad corp' conspiracy theories like this, spare me.

By all means it was not my intention to dismiss MS particularly as it is a well known fact I do not own a PS3, 360 or Wii and probably will not for another half a decade. It was just dumbfounding that you, as a consumer not as a person are fine with a product that is not complete and did not care.

When honestly if the demand is not there for an entertainment player with various faults it is going to force change through fear of total profit failure. Current markets however indicate that many consumers are simply happy to be graced with such incomplete products.

pjlead wrote

Again common does not equate to correct, the statement you quoted was in fact directed at Jibbs opinion on it and not the fact that it was rampant in industry as I am obviously of the opinion that consumers by and large would benefit by actually not accepting such shortcuts.

Infested Jibbs

3 years ago

My comment was 'you guys', it wasn't directly aimed at you personally fly, i don't why you think i'm the one likening it to the pinto disaster-my reference to that was to highlight how alot of people here are in fact throwing up their arms and making up conspiracy theories to the big daddy of all big corp cover ups.

I still make reference to my 'meh who cares' comment, cause who does?

When i see an article making mention of a time delay fuse inside all consoles which blows and renders all consoles inoperable after 366 days from the time of first power-up, then........then we can get upset.Scratched discs, part and parcel of this tech imo.

I'm sure nintendo knew the first nes would have instances of teeth bending due to the front load design rendering some games unplayable(hey, thats why the next nes was a toploader), so what's the diff?Welcome to the real world.

ObsoletE

3 years ago

of course they knew.

but it's a case of justifiable risk versus profit.

if they were guaranteed that every disc would be scratched, they'd have spent more on a better drive. but a half of 1 percent of all drives scratching discs, then the savings of that drive vs warranty costs for those consumers affected represented better value for MS.

same as anything really. when you tender something, the final product is made the cheapest way possible.

should i care?
not if it didn't affect me.
sad but true.

if you want this more eloquently, go dig out your copy of Fight Club and skip to the part where the narrator is talking about his work with car companies.

Zarnoss

3 years ago

I don't get this disc drive scratching thing unless you turn it from vert to hori, i can get that but honestly, a mate moved his 360 subtley(sic?) to plug in a cord while it was on with my brand new fallout3 inside and i heard the dreaded "grrsshh" sound.I was like omfg!1 DUDE!!

Then i pulled disc out, was totally fine and has worked since flawlessly.

Must be on the drive type where it scratches the **** outta ****.
And me n mate have the Benq, so who the **** knows...

Whitey75

3 years ago

Commentator wrote

I think its pretty ridicolous to say that his disc drive, without ANY help, and with proper care of the xbox console and putting in the disc correctly, ate NINE of his discs beyond repair, yes.

Your right. He should have traded it in after 3 ;P

Zarnoss

3 years ago

Whitey75 wrote

Commentator wrote

I think its pretty ridicolous to say that his disc drive, without ANY help, and with proper care of the xbox console and putting in the disc correctly, ate NINE of his discs beyond repair, yes.

Your right. He should have traded it in after 3 ;P

The thing is , any disc tthat is **** after 360 scratching u have the right to send it back due to service provisions fault..
You get the disc back in a1 condition.
Unless hey prove otherwise, like you stuck a magnet to it , or ran over it with you swivel chair.

x7h3CUREx

3 years ago

i'm not surpised at all.
microsoft are all about realeasing products 'first' rather than releasing 'quality' products. problem with hardware is you cant just realease a patch. i won't be buying their next console and i know a fair number of my friends won't be either.

lennex15

3 years ago

^Fair enough but don't think for a second that other console manufacturers have released consoles with known bugs.
It made business sense for MS at the time to get a years jump start on nintendo and sony by releasing the 360 with known flaws. Accordingly it's affected their reputation. They'd of known about RROD problems and scratched discs and business risk analysis would of told them told them to proceed anyways.
Whether the risk analysis is accurate is a different argument.
The whole things moot anyway as you get a replacement sure it's an inconvenience but at least the problems solved.
Seeing as though it's nearly xmas how about all the toys that get released and can actually cause injury to children.
Nothing is built to last anymore anyway cause it means 5years down the track your not going to replace it if it works fine and does everything you want.

x7h3CUREx

3 years ago

you're right. it's a business decision and it's their call to release a faulty product or not.
every console is going to have some degree of failures but the 360 is beyond a joke.
it seems everyone I speak to that owns a 360 has had to return it for repair at some point.

just on the point you made about the RROD issue being moot because you get a replacement.
that's not always true, many people have had recurring issues. i've returned mine 3 times for different issues.
first the RROD, i sent it off to M$ for repair and it was returned to me in a box with no packaging and concequently the drive wasn't reading disks, then i returned it and it came back packaged correctly and working.
about 4 months later it started to consistently freeze in the middle of games so i sent it off again and it came back working properly again.
it's just their haphazard approach to everything and seemingly total disregard for the customer that has turned me away from them.
it's a pretty basic rule to keep the customer happy or the customer wont come back.
i think they've done a lot of damage to their brand.
don't get me wrong, i want them to be in the market because more competition is good but at the moment they don't deserve my money.

Island_Wolf

3 years ago

Just a few minutes ago, I got my Fable 1 disc scratched on the 360 and it was just a slight kick from mum (my home phone is near the 360 so it was prone). That all it took. My console was in horizontal position as well.

Will use my scratch repair kit from Sanity to see if I could recover it. Too bad there is a limit to how much the cd can be buff before it is totally unreadable and I would be really annoyed having to get another Fable 1 disk when I could get another game.

Shorty

3 years ago

Just so we're all clear on this, have MS fixed this problem at all (as in on later units)? Is the argument now just about the fact that they knew in the beginning and chose not to fix it?

Peveus

3 years ago

You're fairly safe Shorty, if you make sure you get a newer unit (check through the hole in the box at the sticker on the 360 for a manufacture date).

The drive that tended to scratch discs without any indication it was doing so was the Hitachi which is no longer in production. All other drives *can* scratch your discs, but as far as I've seen only when the console malfunctions (i.e. RROD).

AllSchoolGamer

3 years ago

This is also a problem with me but only with oblivion for some reason...I even rang M$ and complained and they gave me some rant about other cd systems doin it. MY response was that I have had ever other cd based gaming system since the megacd and have never had this problem with them. She didnt respond much after that but nothing came of it. I must try again I think.

having said all this I'm done with xbox and any other future m$ gaming consoles...gonna leave a serious hole in my collection when the 360 I have finally dies for good